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Message 1 - The Yalta Aftermath
This first-hand witness account is valuable and my remarks are not intended in any way to to offend Tom Canning. However, the historical introduction and the closing claim of a Russian massacre of 70,000, edited by the WW2 Team, is both wrong and misleading, and it is the WW2 Team that I find at fault here and not Tom Canning.
1. There was no 'partition of Poland' agreed at Yalta. The only partition was that agreed in 1939 between Hitler and Stalin. What was agreed at Yalta was that Poland should be compensated for lost eastern territories by moving the western border to the Oder-Neisse line at the expense of Eastern Germany. This boundary is basically the same as the Polish-German border in the 10th-14th centuries. The final agreements compensated Poland for 187,000 km虏 located east of the Curzon line with 112,000 km虏 of former German territories.
2. Harold Macmillan is described as "the erstwhile political commissar of the 8th Army". This was never the case, and he certainly was not in Austria in 1946. From 1942 to 1945 Harold Macmillan was Churchill's political envoy to the Allied High Command in the Mediterranean, specifically in Italy he was the Cabinet's liaison officer with Field Marshall Alexander. In 1945 he bore responsibility for providing political advice and interpretation of the British Government's decisions to the Allied Command in British occupied Italy and Austria. Macmillan gave up his post on 26 May 1945 to fight the General Election.
He was in the UK in early 1945 as the Conservative candidate for Stockton and a quick look at the record would have shown you that he was defeated by the labour candidate G. R. Chetwynd by an 8,664 majority. He was returned to the House of Commons on 20 November 1945 in the Bromley by-election and became a member of the opposition shadow-cabinet. He was indeed involved in the decision that caused him much heart-searching but to which he saw no alternative, but that was before 26 May 1945.
3. What was agreed at Yalta was that all Soviet citizens would be returned to the USSR, the problem for the 8th Army was that the Cossacks in Austria were not all citizens of the USSR. There were two main groups, the 15th Cossack Cavalry, a regular unit of the German army, which had fought both against the Red Army and against Tito's partisans in Yugoslavia, and the Kasachi Stan, or Cossack settlement. The bulk of this latter group, composed of men, women, and children from the Don and Kuban area, had retreated with the Germans after the battle of Stalingrad. The Germans first tried to settle them in Byelo-Russia but as the Red Army advanced in 1944 they were moved to northern Italy, where the men, formed as a militia but not part of the German army, fought against Italian partisans. So far as I am aware, there were no Russian PoWs in these groups.
Some Russian PoWs did fight for the Germans, but they were part of General Anderei Vlasov's 'Russian Liberation Army'. However, the German's mistrusted them, they saw little combat, and were never in Austria; they ended the war in Prague. Vlaslov and his senior officers were hanged in the Lubyanka on 1 August 1946. One has to remember that PoWs are still serving members of the armed forces and that any proven collaboration is regarded as treason. For example, Private Sch眉rch, a British soldier captured by the Germans was tried by General Court Martial in September 1945 under the Treachery Act 1940 and hanged on 4 January 1946, despite his plea that his parents were Swiss. Other cases resulted in 10 years penal servitude with hard labour, when hard labour meant exactly that.
Be that as it may, both groups, the Cossack Cavalry and the Kasachi Stan were completely in Russian hands by 1 June 1945.
In late 1945, stipulations were made that only citizens who had actually lent aid and comfort or wore a German uniform were to be returned. The trouble was, almost all who fit these categories had either been repatriated already or had escaped, often with the help of sympathetic Allied soldiers, including officers, who provided them with false papers or simply looked the other way at the right moment, and who did not realise that they had actively fought for the Germans. In May 1947 in Italy, Operation East Wind handed over its final contingent of repatriates, bringing the long sad story of forced repatriation to a close.
The man in charge of these repatriation operations by the 8th Army was Brigadier Austin Richard William (Toby) Low, not Harold Macmillan. Low, as Lord Aldington as he subsequently became, sued the historian Nikolai Tolstoy for libel over this matter in 1989. It was a very bitter and controversial case at the end of which Lord Aldington was awarded 拢1.5 million and costs.
4. It is asserted as fact that in 1976 the 大象传媒 revealed that 50,000 Russian deserters were massacred near Judenberg (not a mountain, it's a small town in Austria): "The Russian army herded the men and women on to trucks and drove five miles north of Judenberg. There they shot and killed them before burying their bodies in mass graves."
This is simply not true, and confuses two quite separate events. The two groups, the Cossack Cavalry and the Kasachi Stan, were all sent by train to the USSR under Red Army escort. A British officer, who inspected the trains at Judenberg, found that the Red Army treated the Cossacks "coarsely, but not brutally" On arrival in the USSR, after summary trials, they faced either the firing squad or the Gulag. In preparation, on 11 May 1945 Stalin had signed a decree, drafted by Beria, for the construction of 100 additional camps.
A horrendous massacre did take place, but this was carried out by Tito's partisans on returned Slovenian Nationalists from Judenberg. This was in Slovenia in Kocevje forest. Huge pits were dug and the wretched 'repatriated' Slovenes were made to sit on the edge of the pit and despatched with a bullet to the head, falling into the pit on top of layer upon layer of bodies. They were made to strip and shot in batches of thirty.
In early June 1945, a young Partisan officer, Branko Todorovic, sickened by this, defected to the West bringing news of this terrible massacre which was still in progress. Eighth Army was asked to investigate this, but wrongly claimed that no member of the Slovene National Army had been handed over the Yugoslavs. A similar fate was meted out to returned Croatians in what are known as the Bleiburg massacres.
As in all massacres, there were some survivors out of the estimated 20,000 shot (26,339 Slovenes and Croats were removed from Judenberg). France Dejak, France Kozima, and Milan Zajec not only miraculously survived the savage massacre in Kocevje forest but were able to give evidence to the court, in the Aldington libel case, in 1989.
Sources:
The most balanced source I know of (it pleased neither Lord Aldington nor Tolstoy) is "The Cost of a Reputation" by Ian Mitchell (Canongate, 1999). It also has a foreword by Robert Harris, who made a 大象传媒 documentary in 1981 on the subject of these forced repatriations.
"Gulag - A History of the Soviet Camps" by Anne Applebaum (Allen Lane, 2003), p. 395.
"A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia" by Alexander N. Yakolev (translated by Antony Austin, Yale University Press, 2002) pp 100-102. for the bitter hatred between the Cossacks and the USSR, stemming back to the summer of 1918.
"Stalin - Triumph and Tragedy" by Dmitri Volkogonov (Edited and translated by Harold Shukman (Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1991), p. 492 for Stalin's secret order of 11 May 1945, to set up 100 new reception camps in the Gulag and in Poland.
"The Road to Berlin" by J. Erickson (Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 1983) pp. 631, 635.
"The Russian Century" by B. Moynahan (Chandos and Windus, 1994) p.226.
"Footprints On The Sands Of Time - RAF Bomber Command Prisoners of War in Germany 1939-45" by Oliver Clutton-Brock (Grub Street, 2003), Chapter 16 "Traitors and Collaborators" p. 181.
I have not read Count Nikolai Tolstoy's "Victims of Yalta", but he has a website here About links which gives full details of his views.
The full text of the Yalta Agreement can be seen here: About links
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Message 2 - The Yalta Aftermath
Posted on: 23 December 2003 by Helen
Dear Peter
Thank you for this extremely interesting response to troopertomcanning's article, edited by the WW2 team. Your message represents a companion piece to the story and we are very glad to have it on the site.
The WW2 Team have never made a promise to fact-check stories on this website, even when they are edited. This piece represents troopertomcanning's version of events. The forum is there for exactly the kind of message that you have left, providing the community with the potential to discuss and add comment to a story, to give a broader picture of particular wartime events.
Many thanks for taking time to add this to the site.
Very best wishes,
Helen, WW2 Team
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Message 3 - The Yalta Aftermath
Dear Helen
I deliberately took the line of blaming the Editorial Team for errors of fact because I did not want in any way to upset troopertomcanning, or even to remotely suggest that he had not made a valuable contribution.
Recent events have all too clearly shown me how even the best intended words can be misunderstood or distorted.
On reflection, I perhaps overdid blaming the WW2 Team, but I do think where a country, in this case the USSR, is accused of a massacre you should check facts and sources.
Now forget all this and enjoy Christmas.
Peter
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Message 4 - The Yalta Aftermath
Dear Helen and WW2 Team
On reflection may I add this.
You say "This piece represents troopertomcanning's version of events."
But the historical preamble doesn't reflect his (by 'his' I, of course, mean any contributor's) version of events. It is on a par with stating that Queen Victoria died in 1915 - factually wrong. Take this section, edited and complete with links, which appears authoritative, being under the aegis of the 大象传媒:
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"Controversial decisions
...
However, most of these decisions did not come to light until 30 years later. Then the British government allowed publication on the grounds that most of the people involved would, in most likelihood, either be dead or, at least, in a position to deny that it was their fault. Or that they could do nothing about it at the time, as Harold Macmillan, the erstwhile political commissar of the 8th Army, did when challenged in 1976."
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It is simply wrong, and has nothing whatsoever to do with memory. There never was a 30 year limit of disclosure imposed by successive governments under the Public Record Office Act 1838 (as variously amended) administered by the Lord Chancellor on international agreements. In any event how could the Attlee Government impose this on the USSR and the USA, the two co-signatories?
As for Harold Macmilan denying his involvement, a simple check of Hansard or his diary would have scotched that.
It is this sort of thing that the Editorial Team should check, it does not require hours of deliberation, just a minute or two checking, not memories, but asserted facts peripheral to the memory.
Let me know what you think.
Peter
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Message 5 - The Yalta Aftermath
Posted on: 25 December 2003 by Helen
Hi Peter
I think you are right - it's an interesting debate and I will revive it with Katherine.
I think we need a very clear policy on what we mean when we describe a story as 'edited'. I think this piece is particularly interesting as it is forthright, assertive and apologetic, yet factually divergent.
I think the way forward may be to reconsider and at least write footnotes regarding some of the preamble.
However, we do strongly believe in the community being there to make these suggestions, which is what has happened, thanks to you.
I agree that fact-checking doesn't require masses of work, but if you promise to fact-check one line of a story, you mast check all with the same degree of care and actually this is a massive undertaking given the scale of this site.
Thanks for your correspondence - we've got plenty to consider re' this subject.
Happy Christmas,
Helen, WW2 Team
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Message 6 - The Yalta Aftermath
Dear Peter - WW2 researcher,
a most erudite and well researched rebuttal to my tale of the Russian atrocity at the small town of Judenburg - I know it's a small town - or was as I frequented their small cinema on many wednesdays when they had enough power to run the projecter !
The term "Jews Mountain " is a lower British Army interpretation of the German JUDEN BERG.
The term "Political Commissar" describes Harold MacMillan as you so rightly point out in your para 2 - he was Churchill's envoy to AFHQ - again in the lower British Army parlance - that made him a "political Commissar !
My view of events from the turret of a Sherman Tank differs greatly from the view of a classroom studying Political History, as I saw Russian Soldiers load people onto - Bedford (!) three ton trucks and take them away - possibly to the railroad station - I just do not know and I bow to your knowledge. I do know - from the Judenburg citizens that a massacre took plce there !
The challenge was real to Mr MacMillan and he stated at the time - probably outside the House - that he "could do nothing about it as it was a decision made at Yalta - and anyway the British Army only had one Brigade in Austria at the time". That is what is known as a variation of the truth ! There were two divisions - albeit understrength - the 78th Battleaxe Infantry Div and our own 6th Armoured !Commanded by Lt.Gen. (which made him a corps Cmmdr)"Windy" Gale, whose widow made History herself when she set fire to Hampton Court Palace, and I was led to believe that H.M. The Queen , was NOT amused !
Your statement that there never was a thirty years limit on Public Records
promulgations. So why did the 大象传媒 - the fountain of all truth - publish this story in 1976 - thirty years later. ?
By the way - don't worry about insulting me - after 5 years in the British army - forty years in sales - management - and finally as a Managing Director - I reckon I have been insulted by experts - many times!
A word of caution though - please don't read my story on the Vienna Tattoo - I again blame the Russian Soldiers for Atrocities - the fact that they were Mongols is totally irelevant !
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Message 7 - The Yalta Aftermath
Dear Tom,
What I feared might happen seems to have come true. You say "... don't worry about insulting me - after 5 years in the British army - forty years in sales - management - and finally as a Managing Director - I reckon I have been insulted by experts - many times!" Which seems to indicate that you do indeed feel insulted. If so I apologise totally and completely. I have no wish whatsoever to insult you, believe me.
You may say 'well, whether you wished to or not you have insulted me'. If that is the case, I do apologise.
Internet posts appear cold, one cannot see gestures nor read faces and it is easy to misread what is intended, it is for that reason that old hands (not necessarily children) use emoticon smileys.
You say "My view of events from the turret of a Sherman Tank differs greatly from the view of a classroom studying Political History" I had little formal education Tom, and I rarely take what I read at face value. I do hold an MA in European Studies, but I got that as an adult, after I retired.
I am surprised (although I accept) that you even knew of Macmillan in 1945. He was located in Naples at Allied Forces Headquarters. So far as I am aware he only paid one visit north on 12 May where he talked to General Sir Richard McCreery. McCreery felt that Lieutenant-General Charles Keightley should have a similar briefing. Accordingly, Macmillan went to Klagenfurt the next day and spent two hours with Keightley. (This is what Tolstoy labled 'The Klagenfurt Conspiracy'). The following day, 14 May, Macmillan was back in Naples. Twelve days later, on 26 May, he left permanently to fight the general election.
At the time Harold Macmillan was a very junior politician. In north Africa Churchill had asked Roosvelt for the appointment of a British civilian administrator. Macmillan got the job three weeks later. He was at Eisenhower's HQ (later at Alexander's when Eisenhower left for Overlord) to represent the Coalition Cabinet (Churchill, PM; Attlee, Lord Privy Seal - but in effect deputy prime minister). Macmillan could not interfere with any military decision.
"Your statement that there never was a thirty years limit on Public Records
promulgations. So why did the 大象传媒 - the fountain of all truth - publish this story in 1976 - thirty years later. ?" I did not say that 'there never was a thirty year limit on Public Records', what I said was that there was no such limit of disclosure on the Yalta Agreement.
Can I make two lengthy quotes? The first is from Alistaire Horne's biography of Macmillan (Vol. I pp. 279-80:
"Shortly befor Macmillan died, in December 1886, Lord Aldington [you probably knew him as Brigadier Low] said to Julian Amery, and he repeated the statement several times subsequently, that the decision at Klagenfurt of 13 May had been purely 'military' and 5 Corps would have carried it out regardless of Macmillan's political advice."
And from Ian Mitchell's 'The Cost of a Reputation' at pages 43-44:
"The precise weight of responsibility for the Cossack handovers, as between Macmillan and 5 Corps is arguable. What is unarguable is that both the War Cabinet and Field Marshal Alexander were dedicated to the opposite policy. Both assumed that non-Soviet Cossacks would never be handed over. Alexander went further in that he tried to prevent even Soviets from being sent home immediately, hoping, it seems, for a change of policy at the highest levels."
You say "I do know - from the Judenburg citizens that a massacre took place there!" Hearsay evidence is the very worst evidence, even when well intended. I have thought about this again and I still conclude that this alleged massacre at Judenburg is being confused with the very real and attrocious massacre close over the border in Yugoslavia.
To conclude, I have read your Vienna Tattoo with pleasure, Tom.
All the very best for 2004.
Peter
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Message 8 - The Yalta Aftermath
Dear Peter,
Thank you so much for your apology which has been accepted with all the graciousness that I can muster. I would repeat - I am not in any way insulted rather gratified that people would take the time and trouble to read my stuff, which gives me great pleasure to write of the many funny things which happened in a so called very serious war. Most everyone realised that Mac Millan was on the scene as a "political" supernumery from his Algiers days and when we finally landed in Italy we were based near Caserta - which was AFHQ base ! - Not necessarily Naples !
(see my story of "Music in Wartime Italy") - or for a better laugh - read ("Green Envelopes")!or ("Tunisia 1943)I just wanted to point out that, in the middle of such continuing horror - there was the inevitable British humour always lurking around.
Not all of our days were spent killing each other ! One of the biggest laughs was with Lt.Gen."Windy" Gale - the hearsay story - was that he tended to play billiards in the Scheonbrunn Palace - during the Tattoo
- without the benefit of a Billiard Cue - much to the visiting Nurses' delight !
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Message 9 - The Yalta Aftermath
Hi Tom
Yes, there were plenty of funny incidents, some side-splitting.
If you can be bothered, read an account of my childhood in Italy here A1993403. About a third way down I tell of the last big Fascist rally I attended and of our local doctor and chemist. What I didn't say there is that either I or another of my mates started it and it spread like wildfire throughout our class. Ever tried to stop giggling? It just gets worse. There would be a few seconds silence then someone would snort out and off it would go again, partly suppressed by an ill playing military band. It was shear torture.
Our adult leader, who was facing forward, threatened all sorts of dire consequences in a series of whispers. But suddenly he realised what we had found funny and I distinctly heard a wheezing sound from him and saw his shoulders begin to shake.
Another time I was down at Porto. After school we would go swimming in the lake or just generally mess about. The small harbour at Porto was full of pleasure rowing boats which hadn't been used since the war. Occasionally the boat owner would let us lads take one or two out free. He would pretend to run up bills which he said we would have to settle after the war. Anyway, when the Germans got there they weren't in their best condition.
One afternoon the Germans were taking these boats out. We lads were stood on the habour wall. Two soldiers were taking out a rowing boat, both seated in the middle side-by-side with one oar each, when a third soldier came along and stood by us. There was some banter in German, then this third fellow jumped into the boat from the wall. Whether it was his weight or the rottenness of the boat I don't know, but the rowing boat split in half and closed on the three like the jaws of some giant black shark, the two ends touching, and immediately sank. For a few moments there were just bubbles then three heads bobbed up spluttering and cursing. After we had partly recovered from laughing we dashed across to the poor old boat keeper and gleefully told him he was going to get shot for sabotaging the Third Reich. :)
All the best,
Peter
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Message 10 - The Yalta Aftermath
This is fascinating stuff. I'm a direct product of a war marriage. I really appreciate the content and the detail.
As far as editing and the 大象传媒 is concerned, I think recent events have proven that no media organisation can be correct all the time.
Indeed as the 大象传媒 staff have outlined it is only by discourse that "the truth will out".
For the record and non-specific to the content above:
I believe some events have not been recorded. Both my parents are dead, I have only memories of their stories. I was born in the UK in '54.
I have seen many mistakes printed, translated, or broadcast as fact. So much so, that I rarely accept any media account as accurate
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Message 11 - The Yalta Aftermath
Dear Sirus
Thank you for your comments - as you say - it's all fascinating stuff and all good history - I note that you share Peter's disdain of media reports - I don't go that far but I do question it when I find that teams like Middleborough and Bolton can even beat other teams ! even in a cup game !
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Message 12 - The Yalta Aftermath
Dear Trooper
Good to meet you Sir.
Yes the press pundits should perhaps stick to comment and forget trying to be "soothsayers"!
Very Best Regards
SiriusTheDogStar
member of the "collective"
community of 大象传媒i
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