大象传媒

This story was submitted to the People鈥檚 War site by Bill Ross of the 鈥楢ction Desk 鈥� Sheffield鈥� Team on behalf of Howard Woodcock, and has been added to the site with his permission. Mr. Woodcock fully understands the site's terms and conditions.
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This is a transcript made from an audio recording of a 大象传媒 radio interview between Howard Woodcock and Jack Shaw.
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See also: "Make Me A Soldier, A Burma Soldier:

A8766156

Jack Shaw: How many parades have you taken down at Sheffield, can you remember that?

Howard Woodcock: I think I鈥檝e been involved in the last nine or ten. Time just goes by and I鈥檝e been doing it for several years now. I think they asked me to do it because you don鈥檛 get volunteers to do a job like this. I think that as long as I can put one foot in front of the other, I shall be asked to do it.

JS: You are leading the Parade Of The Veterans.

HW: I鈥檓 leading the Parade Of The Veterans. We form up behind the Territorials, the Sea Cadets and all the other services. Traditionally, we鈥檙e the last on parade and the first off, and we form up in front of Cole Brothers. There should be about three hundred of us; I鈥檓 just hoping the weather stays fine. Most of us are ex-servicemen, mostly old veterans and they go on parade because they treat Remembrance Day as something special.

JS: What time will it start?

HW: Well, we form up about twenty five past ten and the parade marches off at twenty five to eleven. Of course, the dignitaries come out of the City Hall, onto the steps and the service starts just before the silence at eleven o鈥檆lock.

JS: So, we鈥檒l not let the grass grow under our feet because you can鈥檛 do that this morning, you鈥檙e a very busy man.

HW: I鈥檝e got to be on parade.

JS: We鈥檒l return to the war years shortly, but let鈥檚 find out first of all, something about your beginnings. You鈥檙e a Sheffield lad.

HW: Oh yes, I was born in Pitsmoor.

JS: Right, and brothers and sisters, have you got?

HW: I鈥檝e got a sister.

JS: Younger sister?

HW: Younger sister, yes.

JS: And so, did you go to school up at Pitsmoor?

HW: Yes, I started at Firshill School, and then we moved to Ecclesall, and I went to Greystones School, and from there, I went to KinG Edward鈥檚.

JS: And during that time, the family business was already up and running.

HW: Oh yes, it was started over a hundred years ago by my grandfather 鈥� comparatively small before the war, and began to grow after the war of course with the advent of the aeroplane really, particularly in the travel business, it mushroomed tremendously fast when people could get abroad easily, and that was a rapid advancement in world travel.

JS: Were you shortly after Thomas Cook, because he was a Baptist wasn鈥檛 he?

HW: Yes he was.

JS: I think he started the travel business by shipping church people around.

HW: He was a teetotaller as well. But so was my grandfather. I was brought up a Methodist.

JS: Was it always expected that you would follow into the family business when you left school?

HW: I think so, yes. I used to plague them as a little boy after school sometimes, interrupt their work by asking stupid questions about the business. I think they accepted the fact that I wanted to go into it.

JS: While you were at King Edward鈥檚 School, did ideas come into your head then that one day you might be a soldier?

HW: Not at all, not really until about 1936, being in the business, we went on a small cruise which included Hamburg, and I remember seeing all the Nazis and the Brown Shirts and swastikas flying about. That was when I first realised that there was going to be a problem, and then of course, my father took me to hear the great Winston Churchill at the City Hall, when he was an Independent. People were calling him a war monger. He was saying exactly what ought to happen, which was that we ought to be arming ourselves to the teeth to fight Hitler. Not a lot of people were taking much notice of him in 1936, but of course, he was right. Then I began to realise that life wasn鈥檛 going to be too good.

JS: We鈥檝e had a gentleman on this morning, talking about what it was like in 1938, at Kristalnacht; a Jew. So the writing was on the wall even in 1936, two years before then.

HW: That鈥檚 right.

JS: So you felt that despite old Chamberlain coming back with 鈥楶eace in our time鈥� pieces of paper, that was only a 鈥榮tay of execution鈥�, as it were.

HW: I think so, I think we were putting off the evil day, but who wants a war? People right at this moment are not keen on sending troops to protect women and kids who are being killed, which is something I鈥檓 a bit moved by. I鈥檓 still a soldier at heart, and I think we ought to go in and stop it happening as a United Nations Force, a big force, or not go in at all. I think putting off the evil day is cutting lives. It鈥檚 costing lives of women and kids and that鈥檚 what鈥檚 happening today. Look at Rwanda; thousands, scores of thousands of innocent people being killed and it worries me that we can鈥檛 do anything about it.

JS: How old were you when you first started thinking about joining up?

HW: I was seventeen, and I decided I was going to join up. They brought conscription out in May of 1939, and conscription meant you had six months, even though we knew there was a war coming. When you were called up at nineteen, you had six months鈥� service, then you had to serve two and a half years I think, in the Territorials. I thought, if I get into the Territorials first, and learn how to be a soldier as a Territorial soldier, when I鈥檓 called up at nineteen, I shall know what it鈥檚 about, and enjoy the experience. Like many others, I joined the Territorials, I joined the Field Artillery at Edmund Road in May of 39, at the age of seventeen. I had to have a letter from my father, signing me in, and I had to queue for an hour, to sign in. There was a queue three or four deep, to join the Territorial Army. So many were joining that they had to form a second regiment. We had two regiments of artillery at Edmund Road, and the regiments were about seven hundred men 鈥� because all over the country, young men were volunteering to join before they were called up.

JS: That鈥檚 something that鈥檚 not documented very much about the Second War. I know about the First World War, there was a sort of jingoism around and there were songs like, 鈥極h We Don鈥檛 Want To Lose You But We Think You Ought To Go鈥�, and all that sort of thing. There wasn鈥檛 anything like that about the Second World War, but there were still enough people who wanted to be in there.

HW: I think it would be the same again. You know, sometimes we run down the young people in this country, but, at the end of the day, if the country was facing a real problem, the young people of this country would rally to the cause. They would want to serve their country as they did two generations ago.

JS: And when you signed up, you say your father actually signed for you.

HW: He had to because I was under eighteen.

JS: Does that mean you鈥檇 got the backing of the family then?

HW: I had the backing of my father who was an old soldier, and my mother, I can鈥檛 remember my mother being too much against it, although she didn鈥檛 like it.

JS: I think we鈥檒l play a piece of music here, because you played this piece of music, or, you heard it along with your mum. This is the Pathetique, Tchaikovsky鈥檚 Sixth Symphony, the slow movement. You played this together, why, was this an emotional moment?

HW: It was a favourite piece of mine and a favourite symphony of my grandfather鈥檚, who taught me to appreciate good music. He loved Tchaikovsky and this was his particular favourite. It was my particular favourite, and my mother and I sat down and played this on my last day at home in 1942 when I was finishing my embarkation leave before I went out to the Far East for four years.

JS: It鈥檚 very very sad this, this is the slow movement, just before Tchaikovsky died himself.

HW: Incidentally, I was sitting in the Regent Cinema on the Friday before the war started, and I was sitting there with my mother, when the notices came up on the screen that the Territorial Army was mobilised. We had to report to our Barracks that evening. I was with my mother when that happened. That night, I reported to the Barracks for my seven years of war.

JS: This was really doom laden music, and as I say, Tchaikovsky wrote it just before his death, do you think your mother knew something that you didn鈥檛 realise?

HW: Maybe she did, but Jack, my mother never allowed anybody to touch those records, and if I hadn鈥檛 have come back, I don鈥檛 know what would have happened to them, but certainly, the first day I was back from the Far East, at the end of 1945, my mother and I sat down and we played that together. Very emotional it was.

JS: And I can imagine how moving that was. Well, I鈥檝e got a call here from a listener saying that one of the reasons so many people joined up in 1939 was that there was no work in Sheffield. Do you think that was a factor?

HW: That could have had some influence on it.

JS: And it would still be the case today presumably wouldn鈥檛 it?

HW: It would be, yes. But I was almost too young to understand what was going on, but I鈥檓 sure he鈥檚 right.

JS: You were already in the Territorial Army, how did you get a commission?

HW: Well, I was in the Territorial unit of course, and my Battery Commander was Major Douglas Brown, of H.L. Brown鈥檚, the jewellers.

JS: It鈥檚 almost like the 'old lads'of the First War.

HW: It鈥檚 a family; the Territorial Army is a family, that鈥檚 why it鈥檚 so successful. A lot of the units are comprised of local people 鈥� friends. They joined in batches, you know? A great thing the Territorial Army, I鈥檓 a great believer in it. How I鈥檇 got my commission, well, I鈥檇 been in a year and I鈥檇 learnt a lot about gunnery, thank goodness, which helped me when I went for my commission. When I was eighteen and three quarters, Major Brown called me into his office and said, 鈥淚鈥檇 like to send you out for a commission.鈥� So I鈥檇 an interview and I went to Catterick. I had five of the hardest months of my life, in a squad of forty prospective officers. Only twenty of us got through, but my biggest advantage was that most of the others had come from O.T.C.鈥檚 and they hadn鈥檛 even been in the Territorial Army.

JS: What鈥檚 that, O.T.C.鈥檚?

HW: Officer Training Units at the universities (Officers鈥� Training Corps) and Public Schools. They were all great people, but my big advantage was I鈥檇 had a year of hard training in the art of gunnery, which helped me get through. Of course, I was Second Lieutenant when I was nineteen and a quarter and I got posted to a crack regular regiment and a crack regular division that had come back from Dunkerque. That was the beginning of five 鈥� I say wonderful years, I mean, some of them were pretty horrible, but wonderful years really, in a great division and a great regiment, which was my university for life.

JS: When did you get posted to the Far East?

HW: Well, I was posted first to East Yorkshire, where my regiment was, and a year later, in March of 42, we were posted out to the Far East. We were originally intended to go to the Middle East and to North Africa to support Montgomery, but Ghandi and all his supporters were creating problems in India, and there wasn鈥檛 a full British division. All the divisions in India were Indian divisions with British officers and British units, but we were switched to India because they were anticipating a lot of civil unrest there. Of course, we remained one of the only all-British divisions out in that 鈥榯heatre鈥� of war 鈥� in Burma we were.

JS: So when you were actually posted out there then, there was no fear that the Japanese would actually be knocking on the door of India.

HW: No no, that wasn鈥檛 in the frame at all.

JS: So you didn鈥檛 feel really miserable about being posted to the Far East.

HW: No no.

JS: But the Japanese Army was eventually, knocking on the door of India and seemingly invincible then 鈥� Singapore had fallen, they marched straight through Burma, and at that juncture, I suppose the allies had not put up much resistance had they?

HW: Well, we hadn鈥檛 anticipated the rapid advance of the Japanese Army.

JS: Do you know, I went to Singapore last year and I was amazed to find that when the Japanese started landing in Singapore, the Governor of Singapore was actually at a dance and stayed there all night.

HW: Well, they were operating under fairly peacetime conditions. The Japanese just moved extremely fast and Singapore was a tragedy. It鈥檚 all been well documented and General Percival was in charge of an army that was just unprepared. And then of course, they came straight up into Burma and, not that we hadn鈥檛 got good troops in Burma, we just didn鈥檛 have enough troops there to stop the tide of advance and we weren鈥檛 very well trained in general warfare. We were very lucky to evacuate so many troops out of Burma into India to retrain and reform. Of course, the mountains between India and Burma formed a natural barrier and halted the Japanese because they鈥檇 extended the lines of communication so much, we were able to reform ourselves under General Slim and organise ourselves into a great fighting army, the Fourteenth Army.

JS: And the climax of the war in the Far East was fought on those high hills between Assam, India and Burma in the region of Nagaland.

HW: Well, India and Burma, yes. In Nagaland at Kohima, which was the last final bulwark before getting into India, anyone who held the mountains there could flow down into the Indian plains and the Japanese of course, were hoping to get a lot of support from the Indians and were expecting to get into Delhi, but they were stopped on Kohima Ridge.

JS: Did you think they鈥檇 be helped by the Indians?

HW: I don鈥檛 think they would have been, no; not enough to walk across India. I think that was 鈥榩ie in the sky鈥�.

JS: So here we are, we鈥檙e at Kohima Ridge, you鈥檙e a captain by this time.

HW: Well, I was a lieutenant; I became a captain during the battle. One of our officers was badly wounded.

Continued in Part Two:

A8851773

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