´óÏó´«Ã½

"There have been no comments made here yet."

C'mon Aunty Beeb; where are the priorities and well directed outrage at what really makes for a well-ordered, civil society?

Canada may have an odd idea about banking regulation and fiscal prudence , but at least we can still lay claim to the talents and awesome contribution of Gorgeous George .

Because of course, we would never ban any freely-elected politician from coming here here, now would we? That would make the liberal media just go WILD...er... wouldn't it?

At least we have our priorities bang on here. Which is why we're doing so well on the fiscal and social harmony fronts, I guess.

Worth every penny. Though scoring a few extra £xxk+perks+pension for a few more moderators might not go amiss:)

Why Tony Parsons? Did you read any of his NME stuff? And what about "About a Boy"?

Why Parsons? Is he (relatively) cheap?

It's time the viewers had choice here; start the peoples' poll now on who we'd like to see on NN Review. For me it would be Iain Rankin, Bonnie Greer and Tom Paulin.

Is there anybody apart from the extended Parsons family who values Tony's comments?

Public v private divide is only temporary; the next HMG is likely to be a minority (Tory) one, and they, Lord Snooty and the Eton Rifles, that is, will do everything they can to halt and perhaps reduce the growth of the public sector; which is no bad thing; we have already seen this week some damning evidence regarding the NHS, not, I hasten to add, regarding doctors and nurses, but about the management regime and its Pavlovian response to targets.

Managers in the NHS are a spurious hangover of 80's style New Public Management and add nothing to the value of an intrinsically priceless organisation; Lord Snooty knows this and so will attack the apparatchik culture in the public sector with vigour, developing and growing the quality and the quantity of the clinician cadre.

It is only one of the deeply disappointing aspects of the Brown government, this unwillingness to grasp the nettle of outmoded management practices and culture in the public sector. The solution is often one like the snake oil offered for the Post Office. And where does Mandy come in?
Which business was it that he ran, after all?
Deripaska's?

Et in Arcadia ego, said the Thirty Bob Tailor - and one can only agree.

JunkkMale,

"Worth every penny. Though scoring a few extra ?xxk+perks+pension for a few more moderators might not go amiss:)"

In the 1980s, when Thatcherism engineered massive unemployment, without the need for any global slump, there was an interesting group of economists who explored the differences between those employed in the public and private sectors. Rather strangely they were Marxists, and even more strangely they called their ideas 'Crises of Legitimation'. What they had to say, though, still resonates with our current condition. They worried about the 'legitimation' of government; if this was lost then the government lost its power to rule - exactly as Gordon Brown did! But they also saw that public sector employees, along with those of the large corporations, were a privileged group who were protected from the vicissitudes of downturns; as was the case in the 1980s and is now. Perhaps we should not have dismissed all that Marxist economists preached!

kashibeyaz (#4) "they, Lord Snooty and the Eton Rifles, that is, will do everything they can to halt and perhaps reduce the growth of the public sector; which is no bad thing; we have already seen this week some damning evidence regarding the NHS, not, I hasten to add, regarding doctors and nurses, but about the management regime and its Pavlovian response to targets."

You still don't get it do you? The Conservatives and the clones which came after them are in practice Austrian School/Chicago School anarchists. They've been weakening the Public Sector for decades in order to free 'the market' of Public Sector regulators/administrators, as that's what gets in the way of their asset stripping pirate economics. The daily dose of the NHS etc 'doesn't work' is targeted at arrogantly glib people like yourself so that when it comes to elections people don't vote for Old Labour or any other 'nasty' Nationalist/Statist Party which takes away your 'freedom'.

You don't understand why Performance Indicators (targets) are critical to all effective management either. We have a dysgenic population - try to take the implication of that on board for staffing and management.

Sarah (Gavin)

My main aim in presenting both Newsnight and Newsnight Review tonight is to see whether I can get from one side of the studio to the other without falling over. And also whether I can manage to take my tie off - probably worth tuning in for that reason alone, I'd say.

Gavin, I hope that you made it across the studio to without injuries....I know, that you can do it...Thanks for hosting both shows...

~Dennis Junior~

mercerdavids (#6) " Rather strangely they were Marxists, and even more strangely they called their ideas 'Crises of Legitimation'. What they had to say, though, still resonates with our current condition. They worried about the 'legitimation' of government; if this was lost then the government lost its power to rule"

I remind you that there are and that Western 'Marxists' (especially the New Left) tend to be Trotskyites, who (over in the USA), made themselves over into.

They are 'clever' you know.

The first commandment of Newsnight Review to be: "Thou shalt discuss no music but pop music". Why is this? It's like a book programme that only considers Mills and Boon, or a film review that only covers American stoner movies. Very depressing.

County council heads have high earnings and guaranteed pensions, councillors have very good rewards. If they need more just increase the rates. The ultimate gravy chain

When it came to the comparison between the public and private sectors of the economy there was no mention at all on Newsnight about the *huge* differences between the *pensions* of public and private employees.

The latter have not only seen their pensions shattered as a result of the stock market collapse and the specifically intentioned reduction of interest rates. They will also now have to face the consequences of quantitative easing - a hike in inflation.

Public sector pensioners are protected from all of these things.

But no mention at all of this appalling state of affairs was made on Newnight!

I should like to add my voice to barretter's - it would be good to have discussion of music other than pop music. Opera and ballet may be appreciated by fewer people than pop music but they should have their turn every so often. I can understand why it isn't possible really to review concerts, as they are one-off performances, but it would be great to have some reviews of the performance of music beyond pop.

Sarah (Gavin)

We're going to devote much of the programme tonight to the new British economic divide.

I would have thought it been the regions of England that has and has not (got) money..But, this is a new twist.....

~Dennis Junior~

Sarah (Gavin)

How significant is all this? *Very*

Is it a temporary or a more permanent shift?
*Permanent*, because if it was a temporary shift, it would have ended by now!

And with a General Election sometime in the next 15 months or so, will whichever government takes office have to take a chain saw to cut back the public sector, because we simply cannot afford it? Yes, the government will be taking a chain saw to cut costs!!!!

~Dennis Junior~

Public Sector Pay

I have no problem with NHS workers, police officers and teachers getting pay rises. They have a difficult job to do and have been grossly underpaid for years. What I don’t understand is why it should be the same with city councilors and government officers, who are frankly draining economic resources and not having much to show for it. What are the employment ministers doing to help ordinary people get work? Just a few more Job 'No Help' Centers and headline-grabbing initiatives that never got around to be enforced. No reward for failure – talk about hypocrisy!

what we saw was electioneering.

and an attempt to keep the lid on what is obvious to everyone.

like in the bbc the 'no recession mindset' exists not within the frontline staff on basic pay but within the executives who are still locked into what ,is now [and perhaps always was], unjust privilege and will never willingly give it up.

which is why we need an election to give those who have to drive through the polices that will make a new mindset a mandate to do it.

until the election is over no one will tackle the hard choices which mean maybe 12-16 months of drift and dither.

ANARCHISM

As the Public Sector runs the country (not politicians), if the media/general public attacks the Public Sector (and it has been doing so for years - in spome areas physically), what do you think the consequences are ultimately likely to be for recruitment/retention and level of service?

#9 jaded_jean

'I remind you that there are Marxists and there are Marxists and that Western 'Marxists' (especially the New Left) tend to be Trotskyites, who (over in the USA), made themselves over into NeoConservatives.'

But who cares about your definitions? 99.9% of the UK don't, and the BNP can't even hold a conference in polite society because of the public order issues.

I remind you that people know very well that you are a fascist who wants the policies of Hitler returned to the arena. Race "realism", eugenics etc etc.

You have said you are not a Nazi or the BNP yet you seemed very pleased when an "Asian" poster declared interest in hearing about the policies of the BNP.

Curious that they could not find their way to the BNP website.

Perhaps that was not the intention of the posts.

But I assume they are not futile and the "revolution" will come soon and then the democrats will all be sorry eh?

One thing the Chamber of Commerce speaker touched on that I thought was crucial was the re-balancing of the economy.

Will investors and buyers flock back to car companies having seen how vulnerable they were and when there are likely to be severe climate change impacts on transport and energy in the mid to long term?

If we were a services focused economy and the services were largely financial what will we be after the recession?

More importantly where will the money come from to re-balance and stimulate a faster recovery.

Who will lend to us when Brown still insists the it was all a global phenomenon and that it was nothing to do with him guv?

That's the trouble with Brown, tick box politics leads him to reviewing his policies, ticking the boxes he created to be ticked, declaring himself guilt-free on the basis of that analysis and then believing it. Denial.

#18 jaded_jean

Don't you and barriesingleton usually go into the faux "intellectual" skit and start talking about Quine and suchlike at the weekends? Very convincing stuff.

I am sure people who may be as hazy as you about the Holocaust and who don't "paint Hitler as darkly as possible for party political reasons" will be interested - but then they are already converted.

You repel almost everybody else with your views.

The weather is nice - why not go caravaning instead?

Martin Durkin criticising the factual basis of a film about climate change... o_O

Hungarian Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsany says he will stand down, as his government's popularity plummets amid the global financial crisis.

Bets on David Milliband getting his bandwagon geared up in case Gordon is inspired?

What do George Galloway, Lord Snooty and adhesive postage stamps have in common?
They all come from Dundee - as did this guy:

(Billy Mackenzie)



NB Bring back Rachel Campbell-Johnson!

thegangofone (#19) "But who cares about your definitions? 99.9% of the UK don't.."

You are, no doubt unwittingly, parading your poor educability once again.

Let me try again.

Take Sub-Saharan Africa as an example. With a mean IQ of about 70 (based on samples and efforts to standardise non-verbal tests) it means that about 98% of the population has an IQ less than that of the average European.

Now, consider that 30 years ago, our universities would only have had applications from the top 5-10% of our population (i.e well above average), and that entry into the professions would have required a good degree too.

Now do you understand why appeals to the majority are often irrelevant when it comes to technical matters and why your posts are just offensive, ignorant abuse?

#19&21
well said, Gango
#23
how about betting on Alistair Darling?

mimpromptu (#77) "My ultimate goal is the truth." (Is TV Doomed)

How do you personally go about identifying 'the truth'.

Is it co-terminus what you personally 'like' (aka not what you don't like)?

'A police constable whose name appeared on a leaked list of British National Party (BNP) members has been sacked, Merseyside Police said.'

Hoo rah! Hoo rah! Hoo rah!

But if we believe that the race "realism" of the far right is immoral and unacceptable should we not also consider Doctors and psychologists who handle minorities in our happily multi-cultural society.

#25 jaded_jean

"poor educability"

Thats up their with your "televisual feasts" and Quine quotes!

I have two Masters degrees.
I get by - no genius, but more than capable enough to see how risible your arguments are.

IQ relates to education and training - and you know that. Take people from sub-Saharan Africa and educate them and the IQ goes up. In the last University there were a few people from Chad and suchlike and they were very intelligent and incredibly well balanced given their experiences.

Genetic variation is greater within a race than it is between races. There is therefore simply no basis for race "realism" whatever and you know that. The scientific establishment would not even laugh at your claims.

Himmler was reputed anecdotally to have had Jewish grandparents and therefore made the "one sixteenth" qualifier for being expelled to the Camps and sharing the Holocaust experience. Thats the insanity of the Nazis. I think some were gay and that also qualified them I believe.

You simply replicate their errors as verbosely as possible as you try to sound intellectually sound.

But its all "confusion/illusion" from you.

#28 contd

Given the hideous nature of the far right should the politicians not consider a law against Holocaust Denial. There is no evidence I can see that it has damaged the democratic health of Germany and Austria.

thegangofone (#28) "But if we believe that the race "realism" of the far right is immoral and unacceptable should we not also consider Doctors and psychologists who handle minorities in our happily multi-cultural society."

This has nothing to do with the far right, far left, or anything else political and your assertinbgt at it does is disingenuous. You do that to discredit sound research which doesn't suit your personal or political interests, that's all.

You still have not grased what 'race realism' is.

If you look at the 16+1 government, cross-departmental, ethnic coding scheme, and focus on education attainment (SATs), you will find that the ethnic ordinal positions (available at the Standards website), are exactly those found in internationally replicated IQ tests. Hence the case for 'race realism' in intelligence and scholastic attainment. It shows up in all the tests. It is not controversial.

What do you expect people who look at these data to tell people? Do you expect them to say things which are not true?

Similarly, if one measures the height of males and females throughout the world one finds that the mean height of males is higher than that of females. There are lots of measures of sexual-dimorphism. One could call that sex-realism.

Groups are not equal when measured. . There are racial differences, and these now have significant implications for economics as and others have pointed out (watch the video).

Some of these overt, phenotypic, differences are why we can so readily identify people of different races. Others, like cognitive abilities, are more difficult to assess reliably, but they can be, and they are at the group level. People like Richard Lewontin and Jared Diamond just get it wrong. Whether they do so for ethnic/political reasons or just because they make errors is another matter.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Britain has become a very sad nation if rudimentary, undergraduate level, statistics about human cognitive diversity (which have been published for decades) are now considered 'sensitive'.

What is that indicative/syptomatic of other than a worrying deterioration in rationality if not reinforcement of ignorance? Is it really any wonder that so many have been victims of 'predatory lending' and that the economy is in such a mess?

Nicky Cambell - 'The Big Question' Sunday 22 March.

Part I: population growth; Part II: skunk. I was tempted to switch off as the format of the show is clealry oriented to stimulating excitement as co-terminus with debate. There's no such equivalence. Such programmes are clearly for entertainment value, which is why those in the auduence who presented the bare facts were passed over quite quickly as they didn't make exciting enough noises (and presumably, people off camera with the 'twiddley boxes' so loved by Newsnight in the past, gave them the thumbs down.

This hyperemotionlism/populism/limbicism is now endemic and I reckon it's sadly symptomatic of our insidious dysgenic decline (skewed birth rate).

thegangofone - a heads-up. We all came out of Africa about 100,000 - 30,000 years or so ago (and mutated, probably so we could make the most of the low UV for vitamin D synthesis). Put another way, some stayed behind.

DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS (GOSPLAN?)

"Thomas Balogh's (1905-1985) career was, perhaps, the most brilliant of all Hungaro-Brits. He served in Her Majesty's Government as Minister of State at the Department of Energy. Coming to Britain in 1931, he became a Lecturer at University College. Later on he taught at Balliol College, Oxford, but with the government appointment returned to London and lived at various addresses in Hampstead. In 1968 he was made a Life Peer and chose the title Lord Balogh of Hampstead.

Hungarians came to Britain in waves, parallel with historical tragedies befalling their country. The anti-Jewish laws lead to the emigration to Britain of eminent economists (three of them became Life Peers: (, Lord Káldor and Lord Bauer)."

See our GOSPLAN under Brown in the 1960s and who Wilson's were.

In those times (30s), many saw Jews as coextensive with Trotskyites. The USSR was of course purging (i.e. expelling) Trotskyites from the Party from the late 20s through 30s, and many fled Eastern and Central Europe for what should be, but to many is not, obvious reasons. It wasn't because they went to synagogue, that's for sure.

If the rumour's of there being potential criminal investigations into RBS board activities with regard to non-directors oversight are true it would be interesting to know whether they contributed to Labour coffers and whether many went on to advise the government.

#35 Jaded_jean

Given that you clearly have to know that there is no scientific basis for race "realism" then any analysis based on race is clearly ludicrous.

You have a hate-filled obsession probably because of parental socialization?

If the anecdotal evidence that Himmler had a Jewish grandparent (and therefore qualified for the camps) is true would you have seen him as a "Trotskyite"?

With regard to the strange ramblings on Stalin:

Stalin is well known to have shot party faithful; the unfaithful; people who happened to live in a particular location; people who were too popular and sometimes to shoot some people just to keep others on their toes. So expulsions mean nothing more than he expelled people.

He was a monster who killed more than Hitler.

People like yourself often like both - you could almost imagine Stalingrad would have "breaks" for carols and football matches.

But actually I think it wasn't quite like that.

You do like "Asians" who want to hear about the BNP on the ´óÏó´«Ã½ (as if).

What an advert for the BNP you would be! Encourage membership to beliefs that mean just about anybody is liable to be shot. A kind of anarchy?

For your #34 skin colour has nothing to do with IQ and intelligence - you also know that.

You only seek an excuse to enjoy your hatred, the hate is already there in your mind fuelled by your own internal issues.

You are a highly confused and inadequate thinker and you have to be aware that you have flawed propaganda in place of scientific reason.

You have joined a club you could not leave as you don't have the strength of will.

tehgangofone (#37) I suggest you look up the published research, which has, of course, been repeatedly linked to many times for your benefit, and which you chopose to ignore.

You should listen to the ´óÏó´«Ã½ programme 'The Moral Maze' back on October 2007 which covered this issue when James Watson was hauled dove rthe coals for telling the truth. Then, the MM panel accepted the professional contribution of Richard Lynn and rebuked somebody for their ignorance when they persisted in expressing the sorts of views which you do.

What you are displaying is, ironically, bigotry. It is also very annoying to see you persistently post untruths.

laments the extent of this modern lunacy.

contd: It isn't kind to encourage people who can't do things to believe that they can. It isn't benevolent to encourage nations which have low mean cognitive ability to believe that they can develop through adopting the values of countries which have a markedly different mean IQ, as they simply don't have the human genetic resources and education can not equip what is not already there, we know that from decades iof research in the West.

In fact, there's something sinister about those who state otherwise, as it's more likely that the sole purpose of their doing so is far from benevolence, it's predatory, just as we've seen in the mass exploitation of those comprising growing sub-prime markets both here and in the USA. Nations with large populations and low mean IQs are just seen by predators as rich pickings so long as they can free such countries from the 'control' of their governments - they peddle Human Rights to weaken tose country's states thus freeing up 'consumers', i.e. making them easier to take advantage of. Taking on board what I have been saying would alert them and the est of the world to the extent that they need to be better managed/protected, much like children do.

36. Go1 wrote:

"If the rumour's of there being potential criminal investigations into RBS board activities with regard to non-directors oversight are true it would be interesting to know whether they contributed to Labour coffers"

RBoS's financials state that they made no political contributions as defined by whatever the particular legislation is that covers this in the UK (I can't remember the Act, just that it has a long name!).

Interestingly, however, RBoS was the #5 contributor to Sen Christopher Dodd's election campaign funds. Dodd is Chair of the Senate Banking Committee in the US, ie the committee with legislative oversight of the banking industry. RBoS was in good company. 17 of Dodd's top 20 contributors were banks. And everyone wonders why banking supervision has failed.

thegangofone (#29, #30)

“What gets us into trouble is not what we don’t know.

It’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so."

Mark Twain

#7; "arrogantly glib"? ICH? Methinks wee wabbit Jeanie's been looking in the mirror again.

If the Gene Jeanie had taken time to read my post properly (Oldtimers setting in along with the typos, eh?) it would have been clear that I SUPPORT the NHS, but that I disagree strongly with the target culture of the (now) out of date New Public Management approach.

VF Ridgway said in 1956 that "what gets measured gets done, even if it has little or no bearing on the critical success factors of the organisation."

Unfortunately NPM grabbed only the first part of the quote.

Have a look at the article in yesterday's Observer by Simon Caulkin and also look up the Public Value approach to delivery in the public sector.

Whatever you do, get up to date, Jeanie!

kashibeyaz (#42) "VF Ridgway said in 1956 that "what gets measured gets done, even if it has little or no bearing on the critical success factors of the organisation.""

You are yet another who is in love with themselves KB.

Unless one measures one is unable to know what one is talking about, and in the absence fo accountable measures one can't converse rationally, predict, control, or hold anything or anyone accountable.

That's just basic, pragmatic, science/empiricism, and it's not subject to to the vicissitudes of fashion.

The rest of what you write is, alas, just more of the characteristic dull/vacuous invective/rhetoric which one has come to expect from you.

Supplement to #43

and should be read in the context of my criticism of what I assert is a major subterfuge being peddled by alleged equalitarians, including some posting to these blogs.

#43 jaded_jean

"The rest of what you write is, alas, just more of the characteristic dull/vacuous invective/rhetoric which one has come to expect from you."

So you don't own a mirror!

You churn out analysis that is without merit for reasons that clearly have nothing to do with the BNP or other far right groupings.

Race "realism" does not exist as it has no basis in science yet you bow to "the vicissitudes of fashion", your fashion I stress, and usually come up with mainstream scientists "are all Jews".

Sometimes you change the subject and try Quine.

Twain could be new but again you need the mirror and you fail to make any point with your quotation.

Your propaganda has no substance and so can have no effect.

But I assume that your views HAVE to be consistent with that of your comrades or they turn on you (along with the 99.9% of the UK population who like democracy).

I suppose when you "converse rationally" with your comrades its safest to stick to tried and tested dogma.

No thinking for yourself - no thinking at all so far as most can see I guess.

0/10 jaded_jean and lets make add -1 for the effort (as nobody wants to read your nasty little thoughts).

Back in the real world what was this floating about on the Beeb at the weekend that the government (saviours of the global economy) was going to train 60,000 people in the conflict against al Qaeda?

That seems like an extraordinary number if true and you wonder what it is they will do.

I haven't noticed any follow up, apologies if I missed it.

#43; yet more mirror gazing.

If the Gene Genie thinks measurement produces absolutes, howzacom the much vaunted "scientific" approaches produce at least two diametrically opposed views of climate change; scientists are just as opinionated as other humans, although they do sometimes like to think of themselves as the latest manifestation of the Ubermensch.

I think deep down the Genie doesn't really mean measurement, rather "control" is Genie's bag, 'cos she's so right and has it all figured out. If only people would listen, Genie, eh?

Thankfully, they don't.

#43 jaded_jean

" we know for sure" that genetic variation is greater within a race than it is between races.

" we know for sure" IQ responds to training and environment.

That IS science - not somebody trying to borrow the credentials of science to justify pathological hatred and xenophobia.

You sometimes sound like an obstinate teenager who won't accept reality.

How old are you?

#40 JayPee28bpr

Thanks. I was thinking of individual contributions in the vein of the cash for honours inquiry.

Some of these people got interesting government jobs of influence - did they do it in effect with money we have now had to plough back into the banks.

But your contribution was gratefully received!

#31 Jaded_jean

We have done this loop before.

You are hazy about the Holocaust and a race "realist".

If you were a Doctor or a psychologist would people have reasonable grounds to believe you may not have the best interests of the patient at heart? A Jew?

God forbid you are a psychologist.

As for your "science" whenever you get pushed as to why the whole body of scientific literature is against you it is because "they are all Jews". Very rigorous.


But if you collect your "science" together and get it published then perhaps you can explain to all of the stupid scientists where they are going wrong.

My money is on them just laughing at you.

'President Barack Obama has said that the US must have an "exit strategy" in Afghanistan, even as Washington sends more troops to fight Taleban militants.'

Will this involve a change of strategy with the allegedly unpopular war lords who make millions from opium?

As I have asked before and do again - how are they going to link Pakistan and Afghanistan into one coherent policy?

kashibeyaz (#47) "howzacom the much vaunted "scientific" approaches produce at least two diametrically opposed views of climate change"

Easy, the reason for that should be obvious. Some people make political capital (and careers) through populism and distortion. The same has been done in pschology for decades via promotion of cognitivism. To the best of my knowledge, the majority of scientists do not subscribe to the anthropogenic global warming hysteria, becaue the evidence it is based on is not solid enough. If you wnat an example of how irratinal people can be, look at the posts of thegangofone who says he has two masters but clearly doesn't understand even basic, undergraduate if not A level research methods.

You are right about control. Without control over one's variables one does not know what one is talking about. That is why I've been so assertive about the importance of quantitative genetics and behaviour. We know from all other species (think of the variation within species such as canines and primates and how animal and crop farming depends on this knowledge).

The likes of thegangofone keep posting rubbish which are contrary to echnologies used by billion pound industries.

The reality is that the eugenics movements in the early decades of the 20th came about directly as a consequence of Darwin's work. This was obfuscated in post-war times by those who practice eugenic breeding amongst themselves (see the target group population count similarities 1933-2003 despite alleged major population losses (over 1/3 we are led to believe) in the 40s, extensive marrying out, and below replacement level TFRs) but who wish to discourage eugenics amongst their hegemonic/economic competitors. Note that their mean IQ is higher than the European general average, and that the latter's is being reduced through dysgenic policies, e.g. the PC encouragment of anti-racisim, mass immigration and anti-assortive mating.

It's time for you to wake up and look at the data instead of arguing fom ignorance. I know how to spot it.

Miranda Sawyer's comment about Age of Stupid "preaching to the converted" completely missed the point of a film like this and, worse, the climate change situation we are in. Like another comment about the lack of enough 'science' in the film, it presupposes that people need to be persuaded that man-made climate change is happening. The vast majority already know this. Treating climate change like an endlessly debatable contentious topic stops us moving on from there.. and actually DOING SOMETHING. I saw the film's director forced to share air-time with crockumentary filmfaker Martin Durkin, which had exactly the same effect. The discussion should have been about whether this film likely to get people to act.

On the subject of the Age of Stupid 'debate', I would just like to add that I fervently hope Martin Durkin lives to be one hundred, retaining what little mental clarity he was born with, so that in his long dotage he can observe the future of our climate. When millions of human deaths, wildlife extinctions and ecological havoc have piled up around him will his contrary nature still prompt him to deny climate change was man-made? I wonder if he ever worries about the possibility of guilt and regret of his own making.

Go1

#29 I have two Masters degrees.

Himmler was reputed anecdotally to have had Jewish grandparents and therefore made the "one sixteenth" qualifier for being expelled to the Camps and sharing the Holocaust experience. Thats the insanity of the Nazis. I think some were gay and that also qualified them I believe.

" we know for sure" that genetic variation is greater within a race than it is between races.

" we know for sure" IQ responds to training and environment.

I don't know where you bought those two degrees of yours but you should send them back and demand a refund. To legitimately achieve such a high honour requires much work and would result in the ability to present your case in a slightly more convincing manner than "anecdotaly" and "I believe".

Where is your proof? I have before asked you to provide sources for some of your claims so I might follow them up and be enlightened but you never respond. Could it be that there IS no source apart from your imagination? You say what you would LIKE to be reality, sadly it isn't. You are just a very noisy and empty vessel.

thegangofone (#50) "But if you collect your "science" together and get it published then perhaps you can explain to all of the stupid scientists where they are going wrong."

Do you understand what the word published means?

I have repeatedly provided you with links to the published research and official government figures. That is what you are arguing with/abusing.

You are arguing with official population level data from the USA, UK and OECD, and you are doing so because you won't be told anything at odds with your mistaken beliefs.

More diligent readers of this blog will have looked up those links, will now know that what I'm saying is true, and will be puzzled as to why you persist in posting the nonsense which you do.

You are deluded.

#56 JadedJean

So the scientists all back you? Not. Do they follow your twisted logic with regard to "fficial population level data from the USA, UK and OECD"?

Science does not rely upon one person, or their ideology, putting forward their singular interpretation of a set of figures.

The body of science does not support your views of race "realism" and thats why you have previously referred to mainstream scientists being "all Jews" or ascribing dissenting views to ethnic or political motivations.

The government nor civil service level does not share your views on the basis of their figures.

If you are indeed in the majority then what are you wittering on about? But of course you are not.

You aren't and you often try the "dying swan" sequence at this point where you lament those who share your views and fail to get jobs.

If you believe that the reports show your views to be true (and most scientists do not take the view that "we all came out of Africa but some got left behind") then why doesn't the scientific establishment back you?

Why do you persist in promoting refuted and risible logic that belongs to the failed thousand year reich - that ended with Aryan Nazi Germany's total defeat by sub-human Slavs and other ethnically impure races who constituted the Allies?

Do you really believe that you are persuading anybody with this banality?

Genetic variation is greater within a race than it is between races.

Your belligerent sleight of hand fools nobody.

You are somebody who is hazy about the Holocaust and feels that people like myself "paint Hitler as darkly as possible for party political reasons".

You should not try to lecture on delusion!

#55 NewFazer

Anecdotal is usually taken to mean anecdotal - there is no absolute proof. I saw it in the media a few years ago and thought it was a very interesting piece. I believe it was a Swedish grandmother - but that is from memory.

But when you are somebody who feels that there is a "mountain of evidence" that the Holocaust did not happen ( and I assume the reason for not denying it outright is Irving advises against it after he failed to prove his case in the Austrian courts) I am hardly going to be lectured by you on anything to do with education or logic or integrity.

But the general point is why should anybody have to argue with you regarding overwhelmingly proven history?

I say change the law and make Holocaust Denial a criminal offence as in Germany and Austria.

You could produce your "mountain of evidence" in court.

I am afraid you don't qualify in my world as somebody who has integrity on an intellectual basis and your feeble attempts to bully and promote your failed ideological views have and will come to nought.

Rather like your credibility in the real world eh?

thegangofone (#50) Two questions for you:

1) Who wrote the book:

'THE PRESERVATION OF FAVOURED RACES IN THE STRUGGLE FOR LIFE'?

2) Was the author a 'race-realist'?

#55 Newfazer

Given your "superior" logic and historical knowledge have you not noticed on the ´óÏó´«Ã½ today:

'Hunt for Nazi war crime suspects enters endgame......Eli Rosenbaum, director of the Office of Special Investigations (OSI) in the United States, has a list of thousands of suspects.'

Should you not get in touch with Eli Rosenbaum (probably a Jew) and inform him that there is a "mountain of evidence" that the Holocaust did not happen?

Your arguments are too impoverished to be called risible and despite your assertion the gigantic majority of the public reject your views as abhorrent.

If you don't like the heat, don't go in the Kitchen!

Go caravaning with your friends.

At 2:43pm on 21 Mar 2009, JadedJean wrote:
Take Sub-Saharan Africa as an example. With a mean IQ of about 70 (based on samples and efforts to standardise non-verbal tests) it means that about 98% of the population has an IQ less than that of the average European.

What the hell is JadedJean's obsession with the superiority of European intelligence and with IQ specifically? It is ironic that you seem to put great importance on education (at least when evaluating the source of the message) but don't seem to have considered how IQ tests are influenced by education and culture (and yes, i know they are not supposed to be) and how they are not the only measure of 'intelligence'. Your
The assertion that low IQ means developing nations are incapable of properly governing themselves ignores both the fact that developed nations do an appalling job themselves of voting in and running government (economy, environment and exploitation of developing countries are exhibits A, B and C) and also that you don't need that many people to run government anyway. I have spent time in sub-Saharan Africa and have wondered about the many problems of governance there but putting it all down to IQ without questioning the role of culture and education and resource-scarcity, and without questioning the IQ research done there is real feeblemindeness. It's also a good example of how an essentially political argument masquerades as a scientific debate (I don't have time to teach you about the sociology of scientific knowledge but as you claim to be such a scholar I'll leave that to you).

Btw, I have a first class degree, a distinction at Masters level and a PhD, all in psychology (and no they weren't bought online) but I know even educated people can talk rubbish, and frequently do, and just because something is published in peer-reviewed journals doesn't mean it is the bedrock of reality.

has it occured to anyone else that a certain poster may in fact be an outlet for an organisation?

"I have a first class degree, a distinction at Masters level and a PhD, all in psychology (and no they weren't bought online) but I know even educated people can talk rubbish, and frequently do,"

You may, or you may not have such qualifications. As this is an anonymous medium and posters are free to make up such things with impunity, such assertins have to be disregarded as unverifiable. Any well qualified person would appreciate that it would be an invalid argument from authority to try to validate what they had to say on such grounds anyway. What matters is evidence. I have linke dto that so others can check for themselves. People who ignore or argue with sound empirical evdience are ill-educated, uneducable, or have psychopathologies.

You have shown that you haven't grasped, or that you aren't familar with, past links to extensive evidence which is at the root of all that I have been saying, and why it's important to us all. There is no evidence for the efficiacy of envronmental correctives. This makes much (not all) that's sold in the guise of professional applied psychological services, charlatanism.

As one catch-up, something which you should spend some time on before posting again. They have updated the video. It was far more stark when they released the report in February 2007. It had been said by others aware of the data before the beginning of 2007.

You need to informed about this. Oddly, you appear not to know any of it.

doctormisswest #62

There a several here with axes to grind. Which particular poster/organisation were you meaning?

doctormisswest (#62) "has it occured to anyone else that a certain poster may in fact be an outlet for an organisation?"

Something for you to ponder now that you have taken your first small steps sown the road from the brilliance of post-modernist rhetoric towards the more austere camp of :

Would it make any difference if they were, if what said poster contributed is sound/true/empirical?

Have you noted the absence of refuting evidence from critics? It's just invective, or at best, data-free argument (i.e nefarious rhetoric - now widely taught in 'universities' alas).

Here's something else to help keep those cogs turning

thegangofone (#50) Two questions for you:

1) Who wrote the book:

'THE PRESERVATION OF FAVOURED RACES IN THE STRUGGLE FOR LIFE'?

2) Was the author, in your view, a 'race-realist' or a 'racist'?