Ray Kluun
Ray Kluun lives in Holland. His wife Judith was diagnosed with an aggressive form of breast cancer in her 30’s and that is when Ray says that he became hooked on the process of chasing women, attracted to them because they were, in his words, ‘whole’ and ‘healthy’. It became his respite from seeing his wife’s deterioration.
But he maintains that his is a story of true love that goes beyond the fairytale of happy ever afters and in sickness and in health, til death do us part.
Listening to Mr Kluun was a most depressing experience. His attitude was contrary to all that a human being should be doing at for a loved one at such a difficult time. As usual, it is the person who is dying who seems to rise above the ordinariness of being human and deal with events better than the rest of us.
Complain about this postI do believe he truly loved his wife, but know that he is also human, and that our expression of love is never perfect. Adultery is a betrayal of love. However, the fact that he accepts his weakness is a major factor in his growth as a person and may even lead to the desire to change. Sex and love and need become confused, especially so in times of stress.
Complain about this postI found this item fascinating because it seemed to me to expose with great honesty the gap between how good we'd like to be and how bad we can be as humans.
I think it is extremely difficult to be morally honest and that he came quite close. He realised that he was doing wrong, he knew it was wrong but he also knew that it was in his nature to do wrong and that he was too weak to do right. My thanks to him for talking about it publicly, we should remember none of us are any different to him in our own nature.
That is in a nutshell the situation we humans are in, we are indeed desperate creatures and we do need rescuing, which is a very uncomfortable truth. The rescue has happened and we have only to call on the rescuer, Jesus.
Complain about this postThere is still a great British prurience about sex. If this man lived in the UK, it's probable that he would have taken solace in drink. It isn't easy to cope with an illness such as cancer. What Ray did say, but many people perhaps didn't pick up on it, was that he was there at her bedside when she needed him.
Complain about this postRay Kluun Interview
I only caught the latter end of this interview but have a situation not too disimilar from this. I left my wife over 5 years ago (in my early60's) but neither of us petitioned for Divorce. I eventually met another woman who I grew very fond of and we had a close relationship but unfortunately this subsequently failed. Some three months after that failure, my wife was diagnosed with Severe Breast Cancer and because our family were not in a position to support her, I decided to give her all the help she would need. I felt very strongly that this was the right thing to do and gave her this committment as I did to all family members. Because of our estranged circumstances and the unhappiness I feel after only a short time with my wife I know I cannot return to live with her (we live about 2 miles apart) but my desire to give her whatever level of support is needed, has overshadowed any desire I might have to form a relationship. However, I have friends who understand my position and give me their support. It is completely out of the question now for me to consider a Divorce (although of course my wife could Petition if she choose to) but I think this unlikely. My experiences of life & relationships over the past 5 years reveal just how many "long-established" marriages no longer have any value or pleasure in them yet couples choose to stay together. Making the break is not easy, but having done it (without taking the ultimate Divorce) there then remains the "anchor" which holds one from moving one's life forward. Had we Divorced and then I perhaps had re-married (or was living with someone), my wife's condition would have created the most horrendous difficulties. In the event that I can now live my own life on my own terms and do what I feel is right for my wife and yet retain some independence helps me through a difficult and complex situation. No two cases are identical and difficult situations are so often "best" resolved by listening to one's heart with a dash of logic thrown in! We are all unique and there are no "right or wrong" answers to such difficult situations but doubtless there are some psychologists who might be able to categorise/define this situation which might, or might not, be of benefit to others.
Complain about this postI have a friend who dealt with his pain in a similar way to Mr Kluun. Each time his wife went into hospital for treatment he found relief with prostitutes, then was overcome with remorse. This was a new behaviour and he had never been unfaithful prior to this in twenty five years. At first found his behaviour to be dispicable and I found a support group for the carers of terminally ill for him. I went with him to the first meeting and of the twelve others there all but one had issues with drugs, alcohol or self harming. Seven of the eight women had bandaged arms, all the men were under the influence of alcohol. All had developed their problems as a result of the stress of dealing with the imminent death of the one they loved.
The support group had councellors for the drunk, drugged and self harmers, however, I was appalled by their condemnation of my friends affliction, and only gave him a lecture on safe sex, which he found prostitutes always insist upon. I cannot help but think of Orwell's Anti-sex leagues are as much a part of our society as the ubiquitous cctv cameras.
At least Mr Kluun stood by his wife and was with her at the end, as was my friend, and did not run and hide in a bottle etc and desert before the end as so many people do. For men love and sex are different entities and can be separated.
Complain about this postI find Mr Kluun's story very reassuring. I find it such a confusing thing to be living in a society where people do dreadful and decietful things while maintaining the illusion that they are someone 'perfect' and 'respectable'. It's about time we all spent more time understanding, and forgiving ourselves, for our own humanity. I think Mr Kluun and his wife probably experienced something in their time together that many couple I know seem to lack entirely- an honesty and an ability to talk together openly about the things about each other that were good, as well as bad. This kind of love builds bonds that are more powerful than the flimsy romanticised version of love we all get spoon fed in bad romatnic movies and magazines.
Complain about this postI can empathise with Mr Kluun a great deal. I was captivated by his story and honesty because he did what I wanted to do but could not do because of my (British?) guilt. My wife became terminally ill with ovarian cancer and in the two and a half years it took for her to eventually die I fantasised about extra-marital sex continuously. Unless one has experienced what it is like watching a loved one die and having to live sometimes hour by hour for years one cannot pass judgements on the immense pressures. I, like Mr. Kluun would have used sex as an outlet, to bolster my shattered male confidence, because ultimately I loved my wife. What saved me probably from 'acting out', because I don't believe that this casual sex in any way enhances one's self esteem, was psychotherapy. So the intense urges to express anger, frustration and impotence were contained professionally. In retrospect I'm glad I did it this way; towards the end despite the intense anger and fight for life, my wife and I grew closer. We are all different and Mr. Kluun's way I see now was his way of expressing his desperation.
Complain about this postI cannot contemplate what Mrs K was going through, not only did she have to cope with the most horrifying of diseases but also watch her husband betray her.
Complain about this postI was diagnosed with kidney cancer 2 years ago and could not have got through it without the support of my husband. This disease affects all the family and in a way the pain of my disease was nothing compared to watching the the effect I could see it having on my husband and my daughter. The worry and distress it was causing them was at times too difficult to bear. However the love and support we shared got the whole family through.
This poor women did not have unconditional support and had to bear pain and betrayal. I agree with your guest she was not going leave this life saying she hated the actions of her husband she had no choice but to say she forgave him and loved him. I do not feel he should have been give air time as we only got his version of events and hers will never be known.
I listen to your programme because it is often interesting, humorous and it's an enjoyable start to my Saturday. That may all end.
I do not want to listen to freak show nonsense. 'Trisha' or 'Jerry Springer' I do not want. And yet your researchers wheeled out this 'man', this 'husband' who got "energy" to care for his terminally ill wife by sleeping around. His attempt to seek justification for his depravity is sad; your decision to give him a platform for it is hugely disappointing. At points in this item I considered hacking off my own genetalia so as to escape any kind of link with this male of the species. What an utterly value-less individual. He is a person who needs profound psychological help, not media attention. It is not me, I concluded, who needs castrating!
Complain about this postYou really do have to work harder. Today’s broadcast was a sloppy show. I am hugely disappointed that this item got in under your radar - yes, sex sells, and some researcher got intoxicated on a mix of sex, death and depravity, but cannot Radio 4 raise its game a little higher than freak show?!
LMAO
One might consider a man that considers "hacking off his own genitalia", far more needing of psychological evaluation than a man who seeks solace in extra marital sex.
Complain about this postI had a female work colleague who indulged in the same behaviour as Ray Kluun when her husband was suffering from and being treated for terminal cancer.
Complain about this postWhen I was close to losing my life during treatment for septicaemia, my husband spent every waking hour at the hospital by my bedside.
We all react in different ways to different situations.
Life is a lottery. None of us should judge another if we or our nearest and dearest haven't knocked at the door of death.
Last week, there was a bizarre story about a bloke running into a west end pizza restaurant and hcking off his penis in front of horrified diners. I thought at the time "what makes a man want to do that?" Well, prepare for the next one, because there's a contributor on this blog who is so upset by Ray Klunn that he's considering it.
Personally, I think it's just one way of coping with death. Ther are lots of people who are married, faithfull and in reality, necrophiliacs.I was one, but i'm okay now.
Complain about this postWhilst Ray Kluun's account of 'chasing women's sounded dreadful, are we really in a position to judge? People do extraordinary things when faced with adversity and not all of them appear appropriate. My 4 year old daughter has leukaemia and I know that sometimes my approach may seem inappropriate. After she spent the whole of last week in hospital, the only thing I wanted to do was late night shopping in Primark in Oxford Street! Mad I know, but my escape from my reality. No doubt the judging public would think that I should be permanently at my daughter's bedside. As it is impossible to know how others feel in such dire situations, should we really judge them? If Ray Kluun's behaviour was acceptable to him and his wife, who are we to judge? Often the behaviour of those involved in such dreadful propblems causes discomfort to those around them, but if it relieves some pressure then so what? I have found a dreadful sense of humour - my worst yet, is that the one of the benefits of having a bald child is that it makes the regular nit-checking a much less time consuming and onerous experience! Difficult times have to be got through and we all find our own ways of coping. Let's not add the burden of judgement onto an already impossible situation.
Complain about this postI was struck that all the discussion about the morality of Mr Kluun's behaviour focussed entirely on the situation between him and his wife. Am I the only one who wondered whether he told the details of his situation to the women he had sex with? Were they conscious of his unavailability, or were they ignorant and hopeful that sex might be a preliminary to something more lasting? It sounded to me as if he simply used the women, which is itself immoral. That this issue was never raised suggests that we still live in a world where a woman who sleeps with a man on a first date deserves everything she gets.
Complain about this postFi if you're still in touch with Gideon Coe do send him my love I'm an old chum from home
Complain about this postGreat show keep up the fantastic work
Kate Pozzetti